Judging discussion - Large and Medium classes (last update: 07 July 2008 )

This page has been added to share the discussion forum entries on an item related to the large and medium classes at the Early National Show, and to allow the outcome to be preserved in the on-line Library.

Initial posting to begin the discussion,  19th May 2008:

Folks,
At the Early National we have two multi-vase classes for large and medium, both are worded similarly, the nine vase class is as follows “Nine Vases of Early Large and Medium Chrysanthemums, from Sections 23, 24, 25. All sections to be used, at least 1 vase Large, 1 vase Medium, nine distinct cultivars, disbudded, five blooms of one cultivar in each vase."

Now, imagine a situation where a grower can comply with eight vases but just can’t manage to find a good incurve but he does have a very good vase of the medium intermediate cultivar ‘Yellow Gingernut’ that has closed over on top to form a very presentable incurve, and so he sets out his entry including this vase.

A couple of questions arise:
1. Should the exhibitor put a card in front of this vase requesting ‘judge as incurve’?
2. Has the exhibitor complied with the very specific requirements of the schedule that ‘All sections should be used’?

Does anyone have a view they wish to share?

First reply by Ken Dear:
A good question and in my opinion the answer to both questions is yes. Provided the intermediate in question is clearly marked with 'please judge as incurve' then the entry would be as schedule. If not marked it would be judged as an intermediate and with no incurve present it would get the dreaded NAS!!

Second reply by Fred Waining:

If memory serves me correctly you should mark the vase of intermediates you want judged as an incurve ie "Judge as Incurve" the vase then becomes a vase of incurves for the duration of the show, as such it could be considered for best vase of incurves, you have also fulfilled the requirements of the shedule, ie all sections.

There is a further point here why should the growers of large and mediums have to show an incurve, to enter similar classes of large flowered you don't need one and likewise with mediums, the growers of both are discriminated against, this is not on, if you need an incurve to enter the large/medium classes then you should need one to enter similar large classes and likewise similar medium classes.
Let's have a level playing field.

Response to Ken's Reply:

Response from Shows Committee Chairman, 12th June 2008:

Hi Paul

It would seem that most of your replies received to date are correct. The Bob Dawsey Memorial trophy was specifically introduced as a new class to add to the National Championships for large and medium blooms and the class does require blooms from sections, 23, 24 and 25, one vase at least being medium and one large flowered. This does mean that the exhibit has to have an Incurve, but according to our current judging rules it is possible to show an Intermediate that has true incurving form as an Incurve. In this class it would be necessary, as the judging rules require,  for the exhibitor to attach a label asking the judge to" Judge as an Incurve. This would then meet the requirements of the class to contain a vase from "Section 23".

One important point that has not been raised, is if you showed say Gingernut and asked for it to be judged as an Incurve, could you also show a vase of it as an Intermediate?

Terry Porter
Show Manager

Judging discussion - Large and Medium classes
What Ken & Terry, Fred, have stated regarding asking intermediate to be judge as incurve is quite right so long as they mark the particular vase to be judge as incurve. Remember once this is done the vase remains throughout the show as an incurve can't be judge as intermediate even though it might also be the best vase of intermediates it does not qualify for this.

So Terry this is in answer to the intermediate to be judge as incurve it remains a incurve & can be judge only as incurve & can be judge for the best vase of incurves in show. 

Going back many years ago when one could show mediums up to large once you did this they remained large & same rules did apply asking intermediate to be judge as incurve; that you had to state to be judge as incurves. 

I know that The Bob Dawsey Memorial Trophy does require from sections 23, 24, 25, of which under the rules would include October 13, 14, 15, 

Regarding incurves there's Joyce Frieda 13b,John Hughes & Sports 13b Kay Woolman & Sports 13b lots more. I do think the this major class is right to have incurve part of it. Years ago I won the 9 vase large the Bertram Jones Trophy with 4 vases incurves 3 vases of 24b reflexes. How times have change. In the Scottish National Chrysanthemums & Dahlia Society Show I had a vase of "New Stylist" in Mason trophy class of 6 vases of large & the judges said it was the best vase of Mediums in show but under rules of judging it remained large throughout the show.

Harry Lawson.